Rendered at 09:22:40 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
vjk800 2 hours ago [-]
I read a bunch of pop psychology books (by supposedly respectably authors who were academic researches on this stuff) on child development when my kids were in that age. Weirdly, the author of this leaves out a completely relevant variable from the discussion: the child's age.
As far as I recall from my readings, daycare might be harmful for very small children (around age 2 and below), who are still very attached to their mothers. Above that, it is a matter of how large the group size is and how professional the daycare teachers are. Children below the age of 6 or so benefit from very small groups, because they don't yet have the social intelligence to navigate multi-person interactions. All children left on their own tend to develop anti-social behavioural patterns (such as taking toys from other by force, etc.), and a qualified daycare professional is supposed to watch for and weed out that kind of behaviour.
zdc1 2 hours ago [-]
Peoples' home lives and school lives can be so varied that I wonder if an A vs B comparison is even appropriate. Are the kids going to be playing outside? On an iPad? With the neighbours? Watching Christian TV? Are there bullies at school? Does their home feel safe?
And even if there's an impact one way or another, daycare has a much bigger role in helping keep women in the workforce. Many don't make it back in after a 5 year break to raise kids. Daycare helps stop them from falling off the career ladder.
xg15 57 minutes ago [-]
I'm not in that debate at all (this was actually the first time I heard there is an "anti-daycare movement" at all) but I found the section on cortisol to be extremely unconvincing.
The anti-daycare camp claims they have evidence of a clear relationship between elevated cortisol levels and daycare visits - to which the author responds with a bunch of irrelevant, deflective points like "cortisol is an important part of the metabolism and it fluctuates all the time anyway and sometimes it's even low in people who are stressed!" None of which addresses the concrete issue that the camp brought up.
That's "the climate has changed before" kind of arguing.
The irony is that he made a better argument at the end ("are they really stressed or just excited and in an unfamiliar environment, meeting lots of new people, etc etc") but only after doing all this handwaving before.
jstanley 31 minutes ago [-]
> are they really stressed or just excited and in an unfamiliar environment, meeting lots of new people, etc etc
Being in an unfamiliar environment and meeting lots of new people is stressful. They can be genuinely stressed. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.
xg15 28 minutes ago [-]
Yeah, I think this is basically what the author wanted to say. He just wrote it in a way that made the argument look less credible than just stating it on its own.
(Even then, I'd expect the follow-up discussion here to ask whether this is "good stress" or "bad stress" that is happening here, and whether it's only a situation at the beginning that kids quickly get used to or whether it's a permanent thing)
andai 37 minutes ago [-]
I'm reminded of Bloom's 2 sigma effect. Classroom education is to tutoring as daycare is to parenting.
Or course it helps the disadvantaged. Indeed if the neglect is bad enough, you may get superior parenting from the people at daycare (or indeed at school)!
Personally I had a nice time at daycare. There were toys there, and friends, and people who paid attention to you.
bryanrasmussen 3 hours ago [-]
reading it I notice that the argument against daycare was referencing an American and the arguments for daycare were referencing Europeans. Can it be that the cultures have two different approaches to daycare? Either that or, as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49496012 says it's a bunch of crap. I tend not to flag but the article seems close enough to anti-vaxx but where daycare is concerned that I am sorely tempted.
Also they cookie banner is the most annoying bit of passive-aggressive UI I've seen in a long time, and now I feel stupid and dirty because I decided oh well I'll be nice this time and just Accept All. UGH. Curse me for my clemency.
Aeolun 16 minutes ago [-]
Everytime I see kids in daycare they seem overjoyed to be constantly surrounded by others to play with. I’m not sure if I buy that it could ever be negative.
When they get to later ages they start having an opinion, but until around 6’ish? I’m perfectly happy to believe it is not right for some, but I’m pretty much convinced it is good for the majority.
andai 33 minutes ago [-]
I went to an American daycare in Europe and it was awesome. I can't compare it with the local ones though.
greatgib 3 hours ago [-]
No, I think that it is more due to the fact that American have become quite dumber in the last decade and strange things like that pushed some lobbies or political agenda are now going on easily despite common sense.
bonsai_spool 4 hours ago [-]
This is junk both-sides-ism. I wasted minutes waiting for the delivery of reasonable studies that support and oppose daycare but ended up seeing the authors repeat the trope of dismissing studies of hundreds of participants wtihout trying to understand if the experiment was appropriately powered at that sample size.
This link should be flagged and removed.
tgv 2 hours ago [-]
I don't know your motivation, but your remarks do not match my reading of the article. The dismissed studies came from children in unrepresentative conditions (ignoring the fact that this kind of data is extremely noisy and that studies in social sciences are notoriously bad).
It's also not "both-sides-ism." The main anti-daycare fear mongering seems to center around the idea that it's bad for your children, but the opposite is suggested by the article.
Sorry you wasted minutes.
phoronixrly 22 minutes ago [-]
This article seems as bullshit as any parenting influencer I've ever heard while attempting to critique them...
Also the quoted influencers aren't even fringe. They're outright crackpot.
As far as I recall from my readings, daycare might be harmful for very small children (around age 2 and below), who are still very attached to their mothers. Above that, it is a matter of how large the group size is and how professional the daycare teachers are. Children below the age of 6 or so benefit from very small groups, because they don't yet have the social intelligence to navigate multi-person interactions. All children left on their own tend to develop anti-social behavioural patterns (such as taking toys from other by force, etc.), and a qualified daycare professional is supposed to watch for and weed out that kind of behaviour.
And even if there's an impact one way or another, daycare has a much bigger role in helping keep women in the workforce. Many don't make it back in after a 5 year break to raise kids. Daycare helps stop them from falling off the career ladder.
The anti-daycare camp claims they have evidence of a clear relationship between elevated cortisol levels and daycare visits - to which the author responds with a bunch of irrelevant, deflective points like "cortisol is an important part of the metabolism and it fluctuates all the time anyway and sometimes it's even low in people who are stressed!" None of which addresses the concrete issue that the camp brought up.
That's "the climate has changed before" kind of arguing.
The irony is that he made a better argument at the end ("are they really stressed or just excited and in an unfamiliar environment, meeting lots of new people, etc etc") but only after doing all this handwaving before.
Being in an unfamiliar environment and meeting lots of new people is stressful. They can be genuinely stressed. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.
(Even then, I'd expect the follow-up discussion here to ask whether this is "good stress" or "bad stress" that is happening here, and whether it's only a situation at the beginning that kids quickly get used to or whether it's a permanent thing)
Or course it helps the disadvantaged. Indeed if the neglect is bad enough, you may get superior parenting from the people at daycare (or indeed at school)!
Personally I had a nice time at daycare. There were toys there, and friends, and people who paid attention to you.
Also they cookie banner is the most annoying bit of passive-aggressive UI I've seen in a long time, and now I feel stupid and dirty because I decided oh well I'll be nice this time and just Accept All. UGH. Curse me for my clemency.
When they get to later ages they start having an opinion, but until around 6’ish? I’m perfectly happy to believe it is not right for some, but I’m pretty much convinced it is good for the majority.
This link should be flagged and removed.
It's also not "both-sides-ism." The main anti-daycare fear mongering seems to center around the idea that it's bad for your children, but the opposite is suggested by the article.
Sorry you wasted minutes.
Also the quoted influencers aren't even fringe. They're outright crackpot.